Stephen Cass: Welcome to Fixing the Future, an IEEE Spectrum podcast. This episode is delivered to you by IEEE Xplore, the digital library with over 6 million technical paperwork and free search. I’m senior editor Stephen Cass, and right now I’m speaking with a former Spectrum editor, Sally Adee, about her new e-book, We Are Electric: The New Science of Our Body’s Electrome. Sally, welcome to the present.
Sally Adee: Hi, Stephen. Thank you a lot for having me.
Cass: It’s nice to see you once more, however earlier than we get into precisely what you imply by the physique’s electrome and so forth, I see that in researching this e-book, you truly bought your self zapped fairly a bit in quite a few alternative ways. So I assume my first query is: are you okay?
Adee: I imply, as okay as I can think about being. Unfortunately, there’s no experimental form of situation and management situation. I can’t see the self I’d have been within the multiverse model of myself that didn’t zap themselves. So I believe I’m saying sure.
Cass: The first query I’ve then is what’s an electrome?
Adee: So the electrome is that this phrase, I believe, that’s been burbling across the bioelectricity group for quite a few years. The first time it was dedicated to print is a 2016 paper by this man referred to as Arnold De Loof, a researcher out in Europe. But earlier than that, quite a few the researchers I spoke to for this e-book instructed me that they’d began to see it in papers that they have been reviewing. And I believe it wasn’t form of outlined constantly all the time as a result of there’s this concept that appears to be form of effervescent to the highest, effervescent to the floor, that there are these electrical properties that the physique has, and so they’re not simply epiphenomena, and so they’re not simply within the nervous system. They’re not simply motion potentials, however that there are electrical properties in each one among our cells, but additionally on the organ stage, probably on the form of complete system stage, that persons are making an attempt to determine what they really do.
And simply as motion potentials aren’t simply epiphenomena, however truly our management mechanisms, they’re how these electrical properties work in the remainder of the physique, like within the cells, membrane voltages and pores and skin cells, for instance, are concerned in wound therapeutic. And there’s this concept that perhaps these are an epigenetic variable that we haven’t been capable of conscript but. And there’s such promise in it, however lots of the analysis, the issue is that lots of the analysis is being accomplished throughout actually far-flung scientific communities, some in developmental biology, a few of it in oncology, lots of it in neuroscience, clearly. But what this entire concept of the electrome is— I used to be making an attempt to tug this all collectively as a result of the concept behind the e-book is I actually need folks to only develop this umbrella of bioelectricity, name it the electrome, name it bioelectricity, however I type of need the phrase electrome to do for bioelectricity analysis what the phrase genome did for molecular biology. So that’s mainly the spiel.
Cass: So I wish to surf again to some factors you raised there, however first off, only for individuals who won’t know, what’s an motion potential?
Adee: So the motion potential is {the electrical} mechanism by which the nervous sign travels, both to actuate movement on the behest of your intent or to achieve sensation and form of understand the world round you. And that’s {the electrical} a part of the electrochemical nervous impulse. So everyone is aware of about neurotransmitters on the synapse and— nicely, not everyone, however most likely Spectrum listeners. They know concerning the serotonin that’s launched and all these different little guys. But the factor is you wouldn’t have the ability to have that launch with out the motion of charged particles referred to as ions out and in of the nerve cell that truly ship this impulse down and permit it to journey at a charge of velocity that’s quick sufficient to allow you to yank your hand away from a sizzling range once you’ve touched it, earlier than you even form of understand that you just did so.
Cass: So that truly brings me to my subsequent query. So you might keep in mind in some Spectrum‘s editorial meetings when we were deciding if a tech story was for us or not, that literally, we would often ask, “Where is the moving electron? Where is the moving electron?” But bioelectricity is not really based on moving electrons. It’s based mostly on these ions.
Yeah. So let’s take the neuron for instance. So what you’ve bought is— let me do like a— think about a spherical cow for a neuron, okay? So you’ve bought a blob and it’s a membrane, and that separates the within of your cell from the skin of your cell. And this membrane is studded with tens of 1000’s, I believe, little pores referred to as ion channels. And the pores will not be simply sieve pores. They’re not inert. They’re actually sensible. And they resolve which ions they like. Now, let’s go to the ions. Ions are suffusing your extracellular fluid, all of the stuff that bathes you. It’s mainly the explanation they are saying you’re 66 p.c water or no matter. This is like sieve water. It’s bought sodium, potassium, calcium, and so on., and these ions are charged particles.
So once you’ve bought a cell, it likes potassium, the neuron, it likes potassium, it lets it in. It doesn’t actually like sodium a lot. It’s bought very sturdy preferences. So in its resting state, which is its pleased place, these channels permit potassium ions to enter. And these are most likely the place the electrons are, truly, as a result of an ion, it’s bought a plus-one cost or a minus-one cost based mostly on— however let’s not go too far into it. But mainly, the cell permits the potassium to come back inside, and its resting state, which is its pleased place, the separation of the potassium from the sodium causes, for all types of difficult causes, a cost contained in the cell that’s minus 70 diploma— sorry, minus 70 millivolts with respect to the extracellular fluid.
Cass: Before I learn your e-book, I type of had the concept that how neurons use electrical energy was, basically, settled science, very nicely understood, all type of squared away, and this was how the physique used electrical energy. But even when it got here to neurons, there’s lots of fundamentals, type of basic items about how neurons use electrical energy that we actually solely established comparatively just lately. Some of the analysis you’re speaking about is certainly not a century-old type of primary science about how this stuff work.
Adee: No, under no circumstances. In truth, there was a paper launched in 2018 that I didn’t embrace, which I’m actually irritated by. I simply discovered it just lately. Obviously, you possibly can’t discover all of the papers. But it’s tremendous attention-grabbing as a result of it blends that entire form of ionic foundation of the motion potential with one other factor in my e-book that’s about how cell improvement is a bit bit like a battery getting charged. Do you know the way cells assume {an electrical} id which will truly be in command of the cell destiny that they meet? And so we all know abou— sorry, the e-book goes into extra element, however it’s like when a cell is stem or a fertilized egg, it’s depolarized. It’s at zero. And then when it turns into a nerve cell, it goes to that minus 70 that I used to be speaking about earlier than. If it turns into a fats cell, it’s at minus 50. If it’s musculoskeletal tissue, it goes to minus 90. Liver cells are like round minus 40. And so that you’ve bought actual identitarian variety, electrical variety in your tissues, which has one thing to do with what they find yourself doing within the society of cells. So this paper that I used to be speaking about, the 2018 paper, they really checked out neurons. This was work from Denis Jabaudon on the University of Geneva, and so they have been how neurons truly differentiate. Because when child neurons are born– your mind is made from all types of cells. It’s not simply cortical cells. There’s staggering number of courses of neurons. And as cells truly differentiate, you possibly can watch their voltage change, similar to you are able to do in the remainder of the physique with these electrosensitive dyes. So that’s a side of the mind that we hadn’t even realized till 2018.
Cass: And that every one leads me to my subsequent level, which is when you assume bioelectricity, we predict, okay, nerves zapping round. But neurons will not be the one bioelectric community within the physique. So discuss a few of the different types {of electrical} networks we now have, fully, or are largely separate from our neural networks?
Adee: Well, so Michael Levin is a professor at Tufts University. He does all types of different stuff, however primarily, I assume, he’s just like the Paul Erdos of bioelectricity, I wish to name him, as a result of he’s form of the central node. He’s networked into everyone, and I believe he’s actually making an attempt to, once more, additionally assemble this umbrella of bioelectricity to review this all within the combination. So his concept is that we’re actually dedicated to this concept of bioelectricity being in command of our form of central communications community, the way in which that we perceive the atmosphere round us and the way in which that we perceive our potential to maneuver and really feel inside it. But he thinks that bioelectricity can also be how— that the nervous system type of hijacked this mechanism, which is means older than any nervous system. And he thinks that we now have one other underlying community that’s about our form, and that that is bioelectrically mediated in actually essential methods, which impacts improvement, in fact, but additionally wound therapeutic. Because if you concentrate on the concept that your physique understands its personal form, what occurs once you get a minimize? How does it heal it? It has to return to some form of reminiscence of what its form is with a purpose to heal it over. In animals that regenerate, they’ve a very totally different electrical profile after they’ve been—so after they’ve had an arm chopped off.
So it’s a really totally different electrical— yeah, it’s a distinct electrical course of that enables a starfish to regrow a limb than the one that enables us to scar over. So you’ve bought this factor referred to as a wound present. Your pores and skin cells are organized on this actual tight wall, like little troopers, mainly. And what’s essential is that they’re polarized in such a means that when you minimize your pores and skin, all of the form of ions stream out in a sure means, which creates this wound present, which then generates an electrical subject, and the electrical subject acts like a beacon. It’s like a bat sign, proper? And it guides in these little helper cells, the macrophages that come and gobble up the mess and the keratinocytes and the fellows who construct it again up once more and scar you over. And it begins out sturdy, and as you scar over, because the wound heals, it very slowly goes away. By the time the wound is healed, there’s no extra subject. And what was tremendous attention-grabbing is that this man, Richard Nuccitelli, invented this factor referred to as the Dermacorder that’s capable of sense and consider the electrical subject. And he discovered that in folks over the age of 65, the wound subject is lower than half of what it’s in folks underneath 25. And that truly goes in keeping with one other bizarre factor about us, which is that our bioelectricity— or sorry, our regeneration capabilities are time-dependent and tissue-dependent.
So you most likely know that the intestinal tissue regenerates on a regular basis. You’re going to digest subsequent week’s meals with completely totally different cells than this morning’s meals. But additionally, we’re time-dependent as a result of once we’re simply two cells, when you cleave that in half, you get similar twins. Later on throughout fetal improvement, it’s completely scarless, which is one thing we discovered, as a result of once we began with the ability to do fetal surgical procedure within the womb, it was decided that we heal, mainly, scarlessly. Then we’re born, after which between the ages of seven and 11— till we’re between the ages of seven and 11, you chop off a fingertip, it regenerates completely, together with the nail, however we lose that potential. And so it looks as if the older we get, the much less we regenerate. And in order that they’re making an attempt to determine now how— numerous applications try to determine easy methods to attempt to take management of assorted features of our form of bioelectrical techniques to do issues like radically speed up therapeutic, for instance, or easy methods to presumably re-engage the physique’s developmental processes with a purpose to regenerate preposterous issues like a limb. I imply, it sounds preposterous now. Maybe in 20 years, it’ll simply be.
Cass: I wish to get into a few of the applied sciences that persons are considering of constructing on this form of new science. Part of it’s that the historical past of this subject, each scientifically and technologically, has actually been stricken by the shadow of quackery. And are you able to discuss a bit bit about this and the way, on the one hand, there’s been some issues we’re very glad that we stopped doing a little very dangerous concepts, however it’s additionally had this shadow on form of present analysis and making an attempt to get actual therapies to sufferers?
Adee: Yeah, completely. That was truly one among my favourite chapters to write down, was the spectacular pseudoscience one, as a result of, I imply, that’s a lot enjoyable. So it may be boiled all the way down to the truth that we have been set off pleased as a result of we see this electrical energy, we’re tremendous enthusiastic about it. We begin creating early instruments to start out manipulating it within the 1700s. And immediately, it’s like, that is an incredible new software, and there’s all these form of people cures on the market that we then resolve that we’re going to take— not into the clinic. I don’t know what you’d name it, however folks simply begin dishing out these items. This is separate from the invention of endogenous electrical exercise, which is what Luigi Galvani famously found within the late 1700s. He begins doing this. He’s an anatomist. He’s not an electrician. Electrician, by the way in which, is what they used to name the form of literati who have been in command of discovery round electrical energy. And it had a extremely totally different connotation on the time, that they have been type of just like the rocket scientists of their day.
But Galvani’s simply an anatomist, and he begins doing all of those experiments utilizing these new instruments to zap frogs in numerous methods and permutations. And he decides that he has answered an entire totally different outdated query, which is how does man’s will animate his arms and let him really feel the world round him? And he says, “This is electrical in nature.” This is a long-standing thriller. People have been bashing their heads in opposition to it for the previous 100, 200 years. But he says that that is electrical, and there’s a giant, lengthy combat. I gained’t get into an excessive amount of between Volta, the man who invented the battery, and Galvani. Volta says, “No, this is not electrical.” Galvani says, “Yes, it is.” But owing to occasions, when Volta invents the battery, he mainly wins the argument, not as a result of Galvani was flawed, however as a result of Volta had created one thing helpful. He had created a software that individuals might use to advance the research of all types of issues. Galvani’s concept that we now have an endogenous electrical form of impulse, it didn’t result in something that anyone might use as a result of we didn’t have instruments delicate sufficient to essentially measure it. We solely form of had oblique measurements of it.
And his nephew, after he dies in ignominy, his nephew decides to carry it on himself to rescue, single-handedly, his uncle’s status. The drawback is, the way in which he does it’s with a collection of grotesque, spectacular experiments. He very famously reanimated— nicely, zapped till they shivered, the corpses of all these lifeless guys, lifeless criminals, and he was doing actually intense issues like sticking electrodes linked to large voltaic piles, Proto batteries, into the rectums of lifeless prisoners, which might make them sit up midway and level on the people who find themselves assembled, this very titillating stuff. Many celebrities of the time would crowd round these demonstrations.
Anyway, so Galvani mainly—or sorry, Aldini, the nephew, mainly simply opens the door to everybody to be like, “Look what we can do with electricity.” Then briefly order, there’s a man who creates one thing referred to as the Celestial Bed, which is a factor— they’ve bought rings, they’ve bought electrical belts for exciting the nethers. The Celestial Bed is meant to assist infertile {couples}. This is how form of simply wild electrical energy is in these days. It’s type of like— you know the way everyone went loopy for crypto scams final 12 months? Electricity was just like the crypto of 1828 or no matter, 1830s. And the Celestial Bed, so folks would come and they might pay £9,000 to spend an evening in it, proper? Well, not on the time. That’s in right now’s cash. And it didn’t even use electrical energy. It used the concept of electrical energy. It was homeopathy, however electrical energy. You don’t even know the place to start out. So that is the form of caliber of pseudoscience, and that is actually echoed down by the years. That was within the 1800s. But when folks submit papers or grant functions, I heard multiple researchers say to me— folks would take a look at this electrical stuff, and so they’d be like, “Does anyone still believe this shit?” And it’s like, that is rigorous science, however it’s been simply tarnished by the affiliation with this.
Cass: So you talked about wound care, and the e-book talks about a few of the methods [inaudible] would care. But we’re additionally different actually formidable concepts like regenerating limbs as a part of this extension of wound care. And additionally, you make the purpose of definitely doing diagnostics after which presumably remedies for issues like most cancers. In fascinated with most cancers in a really totally different means than the actually very, very tightly-focused genetic view we now have of most cancers now, and fascinated with it type of actually in a wider context. So are you able to discuss that a bit bit?
Adee: Sure. And I wish to begin by saying that I went to lots of bother to be actually cautious within the e-book. I believe most cancers is a kind of issues that— I’ve had most cancers in my household, and it’s robust to speak about it since you don’t wish to give folks the concept that there’s a treatment for most cancers across the nook when that is primary analysis and intriguing findings as a result of it’s not truthful. And I form of struggled. I believed for some time, like, “Do I even bring this up?” But the concepts behind it are so intriguing, and if there have been extra analysis {dollars} thrown at it or kilos or no matter, Swiss francs, you would possibly have the ability to actually begin shifting the needle on some of these things. The concept is, there are two electrical— oh God, I don’t wish to say avenues, however it’s sadly what I’ve to do. There are two electrical avenues to pursue in most cancers. The first one is one thing {that a} researcher referred to as Mustafa Djamgoz at Imperial College right here within the UK, he has been finding out this for the reason that ‘90s. Because he used to be a neurobiologist. He was looking at vision. And he was talking to some of his oncologist Friends, and they gave him some cancer cell lines, and he started looking at the behavior of cancer cells, the electrical behavior of cancer cells, and he started finding some really weird behaviors.
Cancer cells that should not have had anything to do with action potentials, like from prostate cancer lines, when he looked at them, they were oscillating like crazy, as if they were nerves. And then he started looking at other kinds of cancer cells, and they were all oscillating, and they were doing this oscillating behavior. So he spent like seven years sort of bashing his head against the wall. Nobody wanted to listen to him. But now, way more people are now investigating this. There’s going to be an ion channel at Cancer Symposium I believe later this month, truly, in Italy. And he discovered, and lots of different researchers like this girl, Annarosa Arcangeli, they’ve discovered that the explanation that most cancers cells might have these oscillating properties is that that is how they convey with one another that it’s time to depart the nest of the tumor and begin invading and metastasizing. Separately, there have been very intriguing– that is actually early days. It’s solely a few years that they’ve began noticing this, however there have been a few papers now. People who’re on sure sorts of ion channel blockers for neurological situations like epilepsy, for instance, they’ve most cancers profiles which might be barely totally different from regular, which is that in the event that they do get most cancers, they’re barely much less prone to die of it. In the combination. Nobody needs to be beginning to eat ion channel blockers.
But they’re beginning to zero in on which specific ion channels could be accountable, and it’s not only one that you just and I’ve. These most cancers varieties, they’re like a expression of one thing that usually solely exists once we’re creating within the womb. It’s a part of the explanation that we will develop ourselves so shortly, which in fact, is smart as a result of that’s what most cancers does when it metastasizes, it grows actually shortly. So there’s lots of work proper now making an attempt to determine how precisely to focus on these. And it wouldn’t be a treatment for most cancers. It could be a technique to hold a tumor in test. And that is a part of a method that has been proposed within the UK a bit bit for some sorts of most cancers, just like the triple-negative type that simply hold coming again. Instead of subjecting somebody to radiation and chemo, particularly once they’re older, form of simply actually screwing up their high quality of life whereas presumably not even giving them that rather more time. What if as a substitute you form of tried to deal with most cancers extra like a continual illness, hold it managed, and perhaps that provides an individual like 10 or 20 years? That’s an enormous period of time. And whereas not messing up with their high quality of life.
This is an entire dialog that’s being had, however that’s one avenue. And there’s lots of analysis occurring on this proper now which will yield fruit form of quickly. The rather more sci-fi model of this, the research have primarily been accomplished in tadpoles, however they’re so attention-grabbing. So Michael Levin, once more, and his postdoc on the time, I believe, Brook Chernet, they have been what occurs— so it’s uncontroversial that as a most cancers cell– so let’s return to that society of cells factor that I used to be speaking about. You get fertilized egg, it’s depolarized, zero, however then its membrane voltage fees, and it turns into a nerve cell or pores and skin cell or a fats cell. What’s tremendous attention-grabbing is that when these accountable members of your physique’s society resolve to abscond and say, “Screw this. I’m not participating in society anymore. I’m just going to eat and grow and become cancer,” their membrane voltage additionally adjustments. It goes a lot nearer to zero once more, virtually prefer it’s having a midlife disaster or no matter.
So what they discovered, what Levin and Chernet discovered is that you may manipulate these mobile electrics to make the cell cease behaving cancerously. And in order that they did this in tadpoles. They had genetically engineered the tadpoles to specific tumors, however once they made certain that the cells couldn’t depolarize, most of these tadpoles didn’t categorical the tumors. And once they later took tadpoles that already had the tumors and so they repolarized the voltage, these tumors, that tissue began appearing like regular tissue, not like most cancers tissue. But once more, that is the sci-fi stuff, however the truth that it was accomplished in any respect is so fascinating, once more, from that epigenetic form of physique sample perspective, proper?
Cass: So form of staying with that sci-fi stuff, besides this one, much more nearer to actuality. And this goes again to a few of these experiments which you zapped your self. Can you discuss a bit bit about a few of these form of machine that you may put on which seem to essentially improve sure psychological skills? And a few of these you [inaudible].
Adee: So the equipment that I wore, I truly discovered about it whereas I used to be at Spectrum, after I was a DARPATech. And this program supervisor instructed me about it, and I used to be actually shocked to search out out that simply by working two milliamps of present by your mind, you’ll have the ability to enhance your– nicely, it’s not that your potential is improved. It was that you can go from novice to skilled in half the time that it might take you usually, in keeping with the papers. And so I actually wished to strive it. I used to be making an attempt to truly get an skilled characteristic written for IEEE Spectrum, however they saved ghosting me, after which by the point I bought to New Scientist, I used to be like, high-quality, I’m simply going to do it myself. So they let me come over, and so they put this equipment on me, and it was this very form of customized electrodes, this stuff, they seem like massive daisies. And this man had brewed his personal electrolyte resolution and form of smashed it onto my head, and it was all very slimy.
So I used to be doing this online game referred to as DARWARS Ambush!, which is rather like a coaching— it’s a shooter simulation that will help you with taking pictures. So it was a Gonzo stunt. It was not an experiment. But he was making an attempt to copy the situations of me not understanding whether or not the electrical energy was on as a lot as he might. So he had it form of behind my again, and he got here in a few occasions and would both fake to show it on or no matter. And I used to be training and I used to be actually dangerous at it. That will not be my recreation. Let’s simply put it that means. I choose driving video games. But it was actually irritating as nicely as a result of I by no means knew when the electrical energy was on. So I used to be similar to, “There’s no difference. This sucks. I’m terrible.” And that form of interior form of buzz saved getting stronger and stronger as a result of I’d additionally made dangerous decisions. I’d taken a red-eye flight the night time earlier than. And I used to be like, “Why would I do that? Why wouldn’t I just give myself one extra day to recover before I go in and do this really complicated feature where I have to learn about flow state and electrical stimulation?” And I used to be simply getting actually tense and simply angrier and angrier. And then at one level, he got here in after my, I don’t know, fifth or sixth, I don’t know, four-hundredth horrible try the place I simply bought blown up each time. And then he turned on the electrical energy, and I might completely really feel that one thing had occurred as a result of I’ve a bit retainer in my mouth simply on the backside. And I used to be like, “Whoa.” But then I used to be similar to, “Okay. Well, now this is going to suck extra much because I know the electricity is on, so it’s not even a freaking sham condition.” So I used to be mad.
But then the factor began once more, and abruptly, all of the form of buzzing little indignant voices simply stopped, and it was so profound. And I’ve talked about it fairly a bit, however each time I keep in mind it, I get a bit chill as a result of it was the primary time I’d ever realized, primary, how pissy my interior voices are and simply how distracting they’re and the way abusive they’re. And I used to be like, “You guys suck, all of you.” But anyone had simply put a bell jar between me and them, and that feeling of being free from them was profound. At first, I didn’t even discover as a result of I used to be simply busy doing stuff. And abruptly, I used to be superb at this recreation and I dispatched all the enemies and whatnot, after which afterwards, once they got here in, I used to be truly pissed as a result of I used to be similar to, “Oh, now I get it right and you come in after three minutes. But the last times when I was screwing it up, you left me in there to cook for 20 minutes.” And they have been like, “No, 20 minutes has gone by,” which I couldn’t consider. But yeah, it was only a actually pretty profound expertise, which is what led me down this large rabbit gap within the first place. Because after I wrote the characteristic afterwards, abruptly I began listening to the entire TDCS factor, which I hadn’t but. I had simply form of been focusing [crosstalk].
Cass: And that’s transcranial—?
Adee: Oh sorry, transcranial direct present stimulation.
Cass: There you go. Thank you. Sorry.
Adee: No. Yeah, it’s a mouthful. But then that’s after I began to note that quackery we have been speaking about earlier than. All that historical past was actually informing the dialogue round it as a result of folks have been similar to, “Oh, sure. Why don’t you zap your brain with some electricity and you become super smart.” And I used to be like, “Oh, did I like fall for the placebo effect? What happened here?” And there was this massive research from Australia the place the man was similar to, “When we average out all of the effects of TDCS, we find that it does absolutely nothing.” Other guys stimulated a cadaver to see if it might even attain the mind tissue and included it wouldn’t. But that’s mainly what began me researching the e-book, and I used to be capable of finding solutions to all these questions. But in fact, TDCS, I imply, it’s finicky similar to the electrome. It’s like your residing bone is conductive. So once you’re making an attempt to place an electrical subject in your head, mainly, you need to account for issues like how thick is that individual’s cranium within the place that you just wish to stimulate. They’re nonetheless figuring out the parameters.
There have been some actually good research that present form of underneath which specific situations they’ve been capable of make it work. It doesn’t work for all situations for which it’s claimed to work. There is a few snake oil. There’s loads left to be accomplished, however a greater understanding of how this impacts the totally different layers of the form of, I assume, name it, electrome, would most likely make it one thing that you can use replicability. Is {that a} phrase? But additionally, that applies to issues like deep mind stimulation, which, additionally, for Parkinson’s, it’s implausible. But they’re making an attempt to make use of it for despair, and in some circumstances, it really works so—I wish to use a nasty phrase—amazingly. Just Helen Mayberg, who runs these trials, she mentioned that for some folks, that is an possibility of final resort, after which they get the stimulation, and so they simply get again on the bus. That’s her quote. And it’s like a swap that you just flip. And for different folks, it doesn’t work in any respect.
Cass: Well the e-book is filled with much more implausible stuff, and I’m sorry we don’t have time to undergo it, as a result of actually, I might sit right here and discuss to you all day about this.
Adee: I didn’t even get into the frog battery, however okay, that’s high-quality. Fine, high-quality skip the frog. Sorry, I’m simply kidding. I’m kidding, I’m kidding.
Cass: And thanks a lot, Sally, for chatting with us right now.
Adee: Oh, thanks a lot. I actually love speaking about it, particularly with you.
Cass: Today on Fixing the Future, we’re speaking with Sally Adee about her new e-book on the physique’s electrome. For IEEE Spectrum I’m Stephen Cass.